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Subject: "New Bill Siemantel swimbait" Previous topic | Next topic
LightninrodThu Jun-15-06 05:11 PM
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#1498, "New Bill Siemantel swimbait"


  

          

http://www.spro.com/


Dan

"Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less"

Deo Vindice

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, supermat, Jun 11th 2006, #1
RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, swimbait, Jun 12th 2006, #2
RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, Pete A, Jun 12th 2006, #3
RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, Wade, Jun 13th 2006, #4
RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, DanO, Jun 14th 2006, #5
      RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, swimbait, Jun 14th 2006, #6
           RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, DanO, Jun 14th 2006, #7
                RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, swimbait, Jun 14th 2006, #8
                     RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, BIGUN, Jun 15th 2006, #9
                          RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, 59lbwsb, Jun 15th 2006, #10
                          RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, swimbait, Jun 17th 2006, #14
RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, Lightninrod, Jun 16th 2006, #12
RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, swimbait, Jun 16th 2006, #13
      RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, BIGUN, Jun 18th 2006, #15
           RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait, Lightninrod, Jun 18th 2006, #16

supermatSun Jun-11-06 05:46 PM
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#1499, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

That bait appears to be very similar to the tool, just a production model at a lower price. If that's the case I prefer to support the little guys, I guess we'll see for sure when its available to the public.

  

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swimbaitMon Jun-12-06 12:15 PM
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#1500, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I have a feeling that Jerry will be just fine. Even baits that look similar in design can often have very different actions and performance in the water. Just from watching the clip of the BBZ1 bait in the water it was apparent that it doesn't move like a Tool. I'm sure there will be a time and place for both, just like there's a time and place for so many other baits that we have.

If I know Jerry, he'll pull his hair out for a little while but then he'll sit down and think of something new and cool and in the end we as the fishermen will benefit from even more great product. Over the years Jerry has been one of the most prolific big bait makers (if not the most prolific) and I don't see him stopping now.

All the competition and the fighting about who copied who makes for drama on the internet but it also drives the guys who make the baits to produce the very best baits that they can. So as tiresome as the fighting gets, maybe it's not such a bad thing because in the end because it means when we go to the lake, we've got great baits to show the fish.

I personally love to try them all out, I love to review the baits, and I love to see what little things people come up with in their quest to make the best swimbaits. It wasn't that long ago that there were only a handful of luress available. Now there's dozens and dozens. For me the bottom line is that I like catching big fish, and the older I've gotten the more I've found it's pointless to be stubborn about using this bait or that. If the BBZ-1 works for me, I'll chuck it. I might have a Tool tied on at the same time too. Maybe I'll use an Okuma rod and a Shimano reel ... and wear a Big Hammer shirt while I chuck a Mattlures. If I want an opinion, I'll see what the fish think. It's all good.

  

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Pete AMon Jun-12-06 07:44 PM
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#1501, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 2


          

You couldent have said it any better Rob.........Pete.A

  

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WadeTue Jun-13-06 09:25 AM
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#1502, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

Rob,
If you were going to design a bait, what would you put into it? I know you'd go for the ultimate hardware, but beyond that what kind of bait would you go for 1st?
Tight lines,
Wade

  

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DanOWed Jun-14-06 10:43 AM
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#1503, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

None of us will ever know if Bill deliberately copied Rago's 8" Tool or not. It does look an awful lot like Rago's bait though. Yes, some of the details are different, but the design of the bait appears to be largely the same. Swimming actions may be slightly different, but the shape and makeup of them are very similar.

What is confusing about your post though Rob is that there is certainly an appearance that the design of the BBZ1 bait could be very much Rago's, and so many are discounting it as a coincidence; sight unseen. I know how feels Jerry about the subject, as several people have abused his talents and countenance in the past.

I am pretty sure that Rago feels similarly about these types of things as you do about people plagiarizing your articles, be it in part, or in whole. You personally have been very vocal about that subject it pertains to your intellectual property. While Rago, Huddleston, Yamamoto and any other bait manufacturer who gets their design ripped is supposed to accept it as coincidence.

The subject is troubling, and our industry seems to be a copy cat one. So few that think or design for themselves and so many willing to copy or plagiarize.

Dan O'Sullivan

  

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swimbaitWed Jun-14-06 12:05 PM
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#1504, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Dan,

If you are trying to say that I am a hypocrite because I brought up the plagarism of my website on the forum here, while at the same time discouraging lure makers from fighting about who copied whose lure, I can only point out that plagarism of copyrighted work is a clearly litigated issue with clear law around it - while fishing lure patent issues are just a wee bit fuzzier.

If Steve Von Brandt had continued to plagarize my articles, I would have retained a lawyer, sued him, and won. I've never sued anyone in my life but that is something that would have been worth it to me to sue over. Instead I used my site as a tool to bring awareness to the issue only after my other attempts had failed. It was successful and I was pleased with the outcome.

On the other hand, if a lure maker copies some other lure makers baits (patented or not), the odds are debateable that anything will come of a resulting lawsuit. Should we argue about it on here ad infinitum or should we let the courts decide? I'd like to let the courts decide, and I have found over the years that no positive outcome has ever come from an argument on calfishing.com about who copied whose lure. Rather than continuing to fight pointless fights, I discourage that type of discussion on the site.

So hey I have some spare time so let's go through this discussion again about why I discourage lure makers from fighting about who copied who. I would love to put this topic to rest. That may be overly optimistic, but I can be overly optimistic sometimes :)

The story goes like this:

I used to get more involved in picking sides in lure copying fights in the past and allow that sort of discussion. In the more recent past I'm trying to play the neutral role and discourage these kind of debates on the site.

My not picking sides in lure copying fights has cost me some friendships in the past. It may cost me some friendships in the future. It may cause some lure makers to never post on my website, consider me to be a spineless wuss, or hate me outright. These are the consequences of my decision on this subject, I'm prepared to accept them.

Fighting about who copied who in the big bait industry has become a vicious circle that perpetuates itself as more people enter the market, and more lure makers treat the new entrants to the market like they were treated when they tried to establish themselves. It's been going on since the AC Plug and while it may seem juvenille to someone on the outside, it has become a way of life for many who make their living carving baits and pouring plastic.

If you wonder how I feel about the lure industry in general being an industry that rushes to copy innovative ideas as fast as possible, I think it's a pretty amoral unscrupulous industry. I feel sympathy for the guys who invent new designs and manufacture great product, only to get ripped off and undercut. I think it would be nice if there were clearer more protective laws for the true innovators in the industry.

On the other hand, I am tired of lure makers who cry foul when their products are copied in part or in full because they did not adequately prepare themselves for the industry in which they participate. If you have a smart fishing lure idea, you should expect your idea to be copied. Simple as that. Anyone who claims they did not know this was going to happen is just not a very smart businessman.

If you want to fight it can I offer some advice? How about acting like a real business and learning the law before you go to market? How about trying to protect your rights within the context of the law? If your legal rights are infringed on, how about getting a lawyer and litigating. If you win, get a settlement, get an injunction, get whatever you are legally entitled to. If you lose, be smarter about it next time.

My plea to the lure makers who use this site is this:

Use the site to get the word out about your baits (free advertising).

Let people know what shops your baits are available in so that they can find them (more free advertising).

Offer helpful tips to the general public in regards to your product, this will build good will and make people feel like you are a person whose bait they would like to purchase.

If you would like a product review, send me a sample - I will be as objective and fair as I possibly can. You will find that calfishing.com is one of the top ranked search results on google.com for many many swimbait type fishing lures. Visibility like this for your product for the price of a single lure is typically a great investment. Much better ROI than placing an expensive ad in a magazine I would imagine.

And lastly, don't use the forum as a place to air your disputes with other lure makers, bitch about getting ripped off, or pound your chest with 'this is the best lure ever' type comments. Instead take a minute to think about your target market, the average guy who just wants to buy your bait and catch a fish.

Does the average guy care about all of this? I really doubt it. The average guy wants a helpful tip and wants to know where he can get your bait. He wants a decent price on a good product. Most of all he wants to catch a big bass. Calfishing.com is a place where I hope people can come to find out more about things like catching big bass. Lure makers of the world can help contribute to that goal in a lot of ways.

Please post your disagreements, rebuttals, or changes of heart :) I will not delete anything you have to say Dan.

  

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DanOWed Jun-14-06 01:24 PM
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#1505, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

No Rob, I am not saying that you are a hypocrite, and am not trying to take you to task. I am saying that you would understand a little more what Jerry feels because you personally have fought the battle of plagiarizm as a writer. In fact I would not call your situation plagiarism, but rather; theft.

And you are correct, lure makers have a harder time dealing with the legal issues surrounding their intellecual property because it is not out in print for all to see on a specific time and date, unless it is in the form of a patent.

The part I was referring to was where you stated that Jerry would pull his hair out for a while and then go about making something better. Sure, you are probably right about Jerry making something new, but as far as him getting over this type of thing, I'm not sure anyone who puts their heart into developing something like these all of these lures to only have their design jerked could ever truly get past it. Especially when the final product will be produced and marketed by a company that can invest a pile of money to do it much faster than you; it kind of stings for awhile. Although, to be honest it appears that none of them; Rago included, can claim 100% pure thought on all of their ideas.

I do not expect you to take sides, you operate a website that caters to "the industry" and her consumers, you are doing as you should, walking the middle ground and giving all sides a shot to expose their wares. And, usually you do it better than some of our other web sites around.

These products are born out of much thought, engineering and artistic ability, and when these guys copy, it serves to cheapen their efforts.

Dan O'Sullivan

  

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swimbaitWed Jun-14-06 02:03 PM
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#1506, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I can certainly agree with all that. No doubt it hurts at a personal level when your design is copied. I've made some attempts at making lures for myself before and I know it ain't easy as 1-2-3 here's your swimbait.

I just hope that the guys who spend the countless hours designing new baits also remember to spend some time doing what they can to protect their hard work. The only way to survive in the tackle business is to protect your design or make the product cheaper and better than the competition. For the small guys, protecting their design could be the only way to effectively compete so it makes a lot of sense to invest time and money in that area.

Crying, "I got ripped off" after the fact isn't an effective business strategy and when it keeps happening over and over clearly whatever is being done to prevent it isn't working. That's why I feel unsympathetic about it these days. And that has nothing to do with me and Jerry. I like talking to Jerry and swapping fishing stories and I've always appreciated his willingness to send sample baits and support the site.

We've had this same conversation before about getting ripped off and knowing Jerry he'll get it figured out either way in the end. The bottom line is that its the tackle industry and if you make something good you're going to get ripped off so be ready.

  

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BIGUNThu Jun-15-06 01:31 PM
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#1507, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 8


          

Everyone keeps saying things like "Jerry will be just fine" and "I'm sure he will come out with something way better". My question is: why, on earth would he? what would Jerry's incentive possibly be? especially knowing that other people are willing to reap the benefits. So many aspects of his designs cannot be protected by patents so we are stuck with the respect and honor system. Clearly it failed. We all loose if Jerry and those like him get tired of this. Who will design and test something new and original? SPRO? Dave Smith

  

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59lbwsbThu Jun-15-06 03:37 PM
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#1508, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 9
Thu Jun-15-06 05:57 PM by 59lbwsb

  

          

no msg

Shane

  

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swimbaitSat Jun-17-06 11:37 AM
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#1514, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

Dave,

You have good points... why would people continue to get in the market with good new ideas if they know it's only a matter of time before they get copied? I know from reading your other posts that you make custom bird decoys and that you've had other companies copy some of your stuff. Why do you keep doing it, and what allows you to continue to succeed? I bet you aren't just sitting around crying in your beer when the competition comes out with something similar to yours, no?

Some ideas that come to my mind in regards to how small mfgr's can survive in the face of larger competition are below, and you'll notice that I don't think waging an internet and phone call war to spread the word that you feel like your bait got copied isn't on the list.

1. They can make lures that are so good that even the copies don't work as well. For example, if the baby tool works better than the bbz-1, word will go around and Jerry will continue to sell lots of product. Not to sound derogatory toward a specific company, but have you heard much about the River2Sea Wood-n-Slither? It's a very similar bait to the Triple Trout but everyone I've talked to says Triple Trout works better. They're about the same price, so which would you buy? Fisherman want lures that catch fish and I know plenty of guys who would pay $100 for a bait that catches fish vs. buying 3 lures that don't. I can think of many examples where the original bait in a lure category is still the best (cough senko cough). If your bait is the best bait, you'll succeed.

2. They can innovate in the manufacturing process so that competitors have a hard time even trying to copy their product. I haven't seen a mass produced soft plastic paint job that looks as good a Huddleston Deluxe, have you? People buy Hudd's because they have incredible soft plastic paint details and while you can't patent a great paint job, you can use one to stay head of the mass produced competition. I think of the MS Slammer in this category too. It's hard to make wood hardbaits with consistent action and even if someone did mass produce a Slammer like wood bait, you can be sure that it wouldn't be the same because the mass production guy isn't going take the time to do all of the time consuming little things that make the Slammer a great lure.

3. They can drive their own costs down through manufacturing processes to keep even or below competitor's pricing. That might sound unrealistic for a single guy working in a small shop but there are ways.

4. They can apply for a patent, get a lawyer and defend their patents as agressively as possible.

In closing I want to say again - I feel sympathy for the small guy who gets his design copied and I wish there were better laws to protect people with innovate fishing lure designs. But in the mean time, in light of the reality of the fishing lure industry, the small manufacturers should stop acting so surprised and affronted when their products get copied and start spending some more time doing what they can to protect themselves and ensure that they can continue to stay in business.

  

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LightninrodFri Jun-16-06 08:30 AM
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#1510, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Guys: I apologize for posting that link. Living down here in the deep South, the only time I'm aware of the problems that small makers of swimbaits have in CA is when I read about them once in a while here and on another site. I meant no harm to Jerry Rago or his business and had no idea the controversy my post would start. I just got a little excited when I saw a new-to-me swimbait.

Rob: If need be, please delete my post and/or this thread.


Dan

"Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less"

Deo Vindice

  

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swimbaitFri Jun-16-06 08:39 AM
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#1511, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

Nothing wrong with your post or this thread. Posts about new baits or products are always welcome :)

  

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BIGUNSun Jun-18-06 09:25 AM
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#1515, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Lightninrod- if you have to apologize, than I have to. This is a great discussion! Doesn't "Deo Vindice: mean: "God as our defender" or something like that? That is sometimes the innovators' best hope (and effective, too).
Swimbait: great points and wisdom, as usual.
Dave

  

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LightninrodSun Jun-18-06 04:13 PM
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#1516, "RE: New Bill Siemantel swimbait"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

Yes Dave. It is found on the Great Seal of the Confederacy:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/confederateseal.htm


Dan

"Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less"

Deo Vindice

  

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