I was thinking about the post by Andy last night with regards to running, the need for it, and fairness in our tournaments. These are a couple of things I thought of; some are not new or might be slight modifications on previous suggestions. Also, I am not trying to start an us/them thing here. Both clubs have very similar goals and much more in common than our differences on the running issue: to promote bass fishing from man powered vessels; to ensure the health of bass caught; and to provide an environemnt where anglers can hone or measure their skills against peers in an even contest.

I am making a couple of assumptions here based on my perception of some of the issues:

1. Many float tubers feel at a disadvantage when fishing against a kickboat when that kicboat is allowed to use oars.

2. Many non-runners feel at a disadvantage when fishing against runners. This is particularly true on a lake like Clear Lake: if you don't know where several "honey holes" are around the lake you have to figure out where the fish are in your area and what they are biting on.

3. Having too many people in an area isn't good for either float tubes or kickboats but again I think there is the perception tat kickboats have an advantage in this situation due to expanded range and the ability to get to the good spots first.

4. Both clubs are BASS Federation clubs, want to remain so, and therefore should make real attempts to follow the Federation rules.

The following suggestions are aimed primarily at the Opens/Invitationals and any other two day events.

Why not have two divisions in these large tournaments and one overall winner? You could have one division for float tubes and kickboats without oars and another for those vessels that use anything other than leg power to get around. Things like overall winner and big fish pools could encompass both groups or not depending on what people think.

If two launch points are being considered then you could have one group launch at point A, the other at B. Then the next day the first group fishes from B, the second from A. This keeps everyone from over-running a particular area and everyone gets a chance to fish the same water. It also allows each group (kicking and rowing) to have an even playing field when fishing their area and eliminates the need to transport their fish risking fish kill or a run in with DFG.

Comments/flames welcome.

Buzzfish

1.Bass federation rules are followed its the dfg one that is in question.
2.oars are only allowed on running lakes,clear lake and sonoma so that advantage in nil.
3.transporting fish doesn`t harm them anymore than you putting them on your livewell on your kickboat as long as an aireator.sp. and some fish additive is used.in fact i`ve had fish in my basket on the verge of croaking come back to life after being in the livewell with fresh oxygen and an additive of some sort.
4.having honey holes is part of tourney fishing and doing your homework,otherwise you might as well go to a trout farm.

Hi Bill,

I'm trying to make constructive suggestions here. Embedded responses below...

1.Bass federation rules are followed its the dfg one that is in question.

Please check out rule number 11 on the CA federation page. There are a couple of sentences that are obviously don't apply (leaving your boat in the water overnight for example) but many of these do apply.

2.oars are only allowed on running lakes,clear lake and sonoma so that advantage in nil.

True but this only applies to SCBBC. Currently BNT is not allowing running. Do you think that my suggestions would help for those tournaments hosted by BNT?

3.transporting fish doesn`t harm them anymore than you putting them on your livewell on your kickboat as long as an aireator.sp. and some fish additive is used.in fact i`ve had fish in my basket on the verge of croaking come back to life after being in the livewell with fresh oxygen and an additive of some sort.

It is my perception that runners brought in a lot more dead fish than non-runners at the last open. Unforunately stats on dead fish do not appear to be on the public pages so this is impossible to validate this perception with actual counts.

4.having honey holes is part of tourney fishing and doing your homework,otherwise you might as well go to a trout farm.

That is you opinion which I respect. Learning to fish a specific area on a body of water also requires skill and homework.

Buzzfish

I just love to fish, with or without oars, with or without running. Im down to enjoy what ever we do. I just love to fish.:+
Have a great day.

Rich

Fish fear round tubers and Bass Tech kickboats!!
http://www.bassanglerprofiles.com/richcaro.htm

Hey Rich, Let me know if you need those waders before the weekend. I'll be at Spring Saturday morning or you can stop by if you want to.

What a softey,lol!

Thanks for those suggestions, Buzzfish. Although we have a lot of disagreement on the running issue, most of us would agree that holding Opens & Invitationals with lots of tubers is a good thing. So, to keep this thing going in future years, we're probably going to have to reach some sort of compromise. DFG might eventually allow "running" under a permit, if for no other reason than to legitimize the FLW Everstart Walmart weigh-ins, but with all the hassles over norther pike, snakehead fish, etc., they're not going to change the law itself.

In '99, when the two clubs 1st really got together for the Invitational, a number of SCBBBC guys were unhappy about allowing the use of oars. Now, I don't think too many people see that as a big deal. I hope we can find some sort of middle ground on running that most of the guys can live with & won't feel like they "lost."

Lol,o.k here we go again.Lets see if we can shed some light on this again.
I looked up #11 and here it is
11. CONTESTANTS MUST REMAIN IN BOAT: Contestants must not depart the boat to land fish or to make the boat more accessible to fishing waters. Boats must remain in tournament waters during tournament days. Contestants must leave and return to official checkpoint by boat. Both competitors must remain in boat at all times except in case of dire emergency. In such an emergency, competitors may be removed from their boat to: A boat operated by other competitors or a rescue boat. Fish can be transferred with boater staying with boat. Partners must remain together at all times, in sight of each other and each other's catch under the conditions cited above, in order for their catch of that day to be scored in the tournament. If a competitor must violate any of the above conditions (to contact a tournament official by phone or other means or to report an emergency or breakdown), both competitors must cease fishing at this point, and their catch must be verified by a tournament official in order to be counted in the tournament. If after the emergency situation is resolved by tournament officials and enough time is left for the competitors to resume fishing, a RESTART will be allowed and the competitors will continue and their catch will be counted. This applies only to dire emergency situations. Tailoring of boats during tournament hours is prohibited, except by the direction of tournament officials.

I must be missing something here because I`m not sure what your refering to.They only mention of transfering fish says you have to stay with your boat,which we do.If its the boat must remain in tourney waters,we are when we get to our spot.Plus we know these things mentioned are designed for real boats with engines,so my opinion is your kinda grasping here,no offense intended.
2.oars are only allowed on running lakes,clear lake and sonoma so that advantage in nil.

True but this only applies to SCBBC. Currently BNT is not allowing running. Do you think that my suggestions would help for those tournaments hosted by BNT?
Sure,but what I`ve witnessed during your tourneys is that everybody has a pontoon that I can think of?I think if this is an issue for your club I would give the float tuber a 10 minute head start or whatever you guys think is fair timewise.
3.transporting fish doesn`t harm them anymore than you putting them on your livewell on your kickboat as long as an aireator.sp. and some fish additive is used.in fact i`ve had fish in my basket on the verge of croaking come back to life after being in the livewell with fresh oxygen and an additive of some sort.

It is my perception that runners brought in a lot more dead fish than non-runners at the last open. Unforunately stats on dead fish do not appear to be on the public pages so this is impossible to validate this perception with actual counts.

You can trust me on this one,no b.s.As far as the deadfish at the open go,I honestly dont know the count.But I do know that one guy made a livewell error that resulted in deadfish and I also know that some fish brought to the release boat were pretty much doa but they tried to revive them on the hopes they would comeback to life,where did those fish come from?who knows.
4.having honey holes is part of tourney fishing and doing your homework,otherwise you might as well go to a trout farm.

That is you opinion which I respect. Learning to fish a specific area on a body of water also requires skill and homework.
Your right this is a matter of opinion and your also right it does take skill to master a smaller area also.On smaller bodies of water you know you`ll find the fish somewhere because you can cover the whole lake.When your restricted on an area at clear lake for instance,you may get stuck on a spot that hardly has any fish and your fishing water that has been picked by several anglers sure its a challenge but not much fun in my opinion.How do ya think the big boys at the clear lake bassmasters next month would feel if they were told they can only fish soda bay for the tourney?It would be a challenge thats for sure,but I dont think they would have very many guys sign up.

Thanks Bill,

My point regarding the federation rules was runners do get out of their boats (and out of the water) to load their tubes/kickboats and fish into their truck. When running from spot to spot this is done multiple times during the tournament.

The suggestion about having tubers blast off early makes sense from the speed advantage perspective. I don't think it addresses over crowding but it would certainly help to level the field.

I'm looking forward to seeing you and others at the TOC. If you're interested I'd like to discuss some of this with you in person as the content or intention of written communication is often easily misunderstood. I think you have a good perspective on the "other side" of the running issue and while I may not agree I do like to understand everyones point of view. Course you will might be kind of tired from hauling in all those big fish. I'll bet you guys just tear them up!

Buzzfish

I have been reading, and reading...the threads of this "running" issue and I have a point, when and if the central coast region of BnT starts how would you be able to have running unless you had a boat? Because most lakes in this area ( speaking of Lopez, Naci, Margarita) there is only one place to put in at. (unless you enter through a private ranch). I can see the issue from the stand point of having too many guys launching from one spot and if that becomes an issue in this area....I would hope that we limit the amount that would fish in any given tourney.

Bryan

Man, this is amazing the amount of content that has been posted on this issue which almost was a non-issue in the past.

I have to agree with Bill on the "homework" aspect of running and searching for new water. Not to say you're in anyway wrong, Clint, but, if you have three people in each of your "homeworked" areas due to launching from a single location, how do you feel? I know I personally hate when I have everybody and their mother fishing on top of me but do admit I get over it.

I have heard about how many guys on this board have said it is unfair that some of the people live closer to certain lakes, therefore have an advantage. Again, most of this is about the willingness to take the time to learn a certain lake and locations in those lakes. Agreed, it is much easier to learn a single location and puts the anglers at a quote, level(er) playing field, but this diminishes some of the challenges with tournament fishing.

Doing "homework" takes time, dedication, learning new techniques and many other factors. Sure, some will have more time to spend doing this but this doesn't mean we should limit what they do! Running or not, everybody is still trying to fish, catch fish, keep them alive and advance the sport. Shouldn't this be the issue more so than "running".

To the point of DFG rules, I would also like to mention I remember someone mentioning about a 1" gap between the point and shank of the hook. Do people here KNOWINGLY fish with a 4/0 or larger hook? Oops, that's illegal! :o

Should I even get into culling...again?

I'll get off my soapbox now but just wanted to point out that there are a lot more important issues than running, fairness (certain opinions) and who is right or wrong. What we should really be focusing on is how to preserve our sport (fishing), the environment and where we want to go with our clubs (kickboat/floattubing). I've worked WAAAYYYY to hard, like others on this board, to have our clubs torn apart on an issue that IMHO is NOT (an issue).

Let's get back to focusing on what is important...FISHING! :7

Todd

"What was weesa tinkin'?!?"

lets just fish! :7

Please fill me in.

Basically, if you have a limit of fish in possesion, you by law, should stop fishing for that species. If you catch another, you are in possesion of it and are breaking the law, even if you haven't landed it yet. That's by the loosest interpretation of possesion.
Tight lines,
Wade

this only comes into play if your fishing a tournament, unless of course your keeping fish when its not a tournament. And of course if the tournament your fishing doesnt have a permit or doesnt give the angler a permit card or tournament card.

No one has broken this law that I know of?

There have been tickets given out at a tournament at Lake Sonoma.

This is another one of those laws that are usually not enforced and is primarily targeted towards trout. It is NOT in our permits or BASS or FLW, etc, etc. I think there was a thread on this on NCBF too.

Anyway, didn't really want to get into this but just another example of knowing rules that are being broken.

Todd

The annual and event permits we get all override the culling rule. The only catch is all tournament anglers "must" have in there possession a tournament pass that has the following info

host name:
sponsor name and signature (tournament director)
location and time of weigh in
lake
date
permit#

as long as everyone has this card/pass DFG cant touch you. This is written in the annual/event permit for black bass tournament bi-laws. All BNT events had this card.

Thanks, John. There's been some confusion on the culling issue. An outdoor writer with Clearlake even published a column a few months ago saying that culling was illegal, & quoting a DFG guy (I think) saying that it wasn't OK.

Are the tournament rules published anywhere by DFG? I've looked up the Fish & Game Code on the web, but I can't find any information relating to the specifics of tournament permits.

I have not seen it online, but it is in writing and comes in the permit bi laws with every permit. Once I find my copy I will send it to William for your records

I'm not sure if this is related to what Mr. Parsons is talking about, but Carrie Wilson of the DFG, released the exact rules with regulation numbers to a WON publisher.

She clearly stated that in the state of CA, there is NO permit that overides the DFG regulations. In her statement, it said 'once an angler reaches a limit (5 black bass) of the minimum length requirement on that particular body of water, they are required to STOP fishing for that particular species. That message was supported by her seniors.

I didn't write it, and don't know if it's true, but it was there for everyone to read. There were a few internet discussions following the article release. Several reader/writers (some tournament directors) suggested to not draw anymore attention to the subject, and end the online discussions, because they already knew they were in violation.

I searched NCBF, but only found minimal info?

Its hard to say how old that artical is, but I am not concerned. If they wanted people to stop talking about it then maybe I should



Lets FEEEESH

Yeah, we got nailed with this one last November at Naci. I had to sit in the water and not fish for three hours x( Dang winning limit.

and thats the falt or should I say not knowing of the TD that was running the event.

There was no permit in possession and no tournament card in the possession of the anglers.

Live and learn I suppose :) I never thought I was doing anything wrong. That rookie DFG guy told the TD that if I just would have said I was fishing for something other than bass, all would have been well. Note to self: start lying to law enforcement officials }(

actually better note to self...be sure the TD gives you a tournament card. If we knew then what we knew now. All we had to do was show him the pass and if he still gave us a hard time. The key word is tell him we will stop fishing once we speak to his lieutenant.

Thats true,you need the card and your in the clear.The people that were getting harrased so to speak didn`t have there card.